Dan & Phil Part 58: Come in my lady door

[auri]

I'm again changing the subject, sorry.

What time do you recon they'll upload/they usually upload? I'm so out of this deppy thing nowadays that I just don't know anything anymore. The clock is nearing my bed time and I think I need to leave pretty much all the videos to the next morning, as they seem to be uploading pretty late (for me at least). Bla. Also I'm going to a school thingy from sunday morning to tuesday evening so if they do upload the baking video on monday, i seriously can't watch it until tuesday night. Buut at least i have something to wait for haha.

//on top of the page, ofc with these kind of off topic post....

[LtrllySusan]

I'm again changing the subject, sorry.

What time do you recon they'll upload/they usually upload? I'm so out of this deppy thing nowadays that I just don't know anything anymore. The clock is nearing my bed time and I think I need to leave pretty much all the videos to the next morning, as they seem to be uploading pretty late (for me at least). Bla. Also I'm going to a school thingy from sunday morning to tuesday evening so if they do upload the baking video on monday, i seriously can't watch it until tuesday night. Buut at least i have something to wait for haha.

//on top of the page, ofc with these kind of off topic post....

Been wondering that too... I hope within the next hour? I don't think they'll establish a proper time schedule just cause it's Spooky Week.

[alittledizzy]

I'm again changing the subject, sorry.

What time do you recon they'll upload/they usually upload? I'm so out of this deppy thing nowadays that I just don't know anything anymore. The clock is nearing my bed time and I think I need to leave pretty much all the videos to the next morning, as they seem to be uploading pretty late (for me at least). Bla. Also I'm going to a school thingy from sunday morning to tuesday evening so if they do upload the baking video on monday, i seriously can't watch it until tuesday night. Buut at least i have something to wait for haha.

//on top of the page, ofc with these kind of off topic post....

Been wondering that too... I hope within the next hour? I don't think they'll establish a proper time schedule just cause it's Spooky Week.

If it's anything like gamingmas I seem to remember some days where it was down to the wire, almost midnight in the UK and we were still waiting on a video lmao. Proper time schedules are not a strength for them.

But since it's the first one I'd guess some time in the next 1-3 hours.

[nachofiesta]

Well said. It seems though like there are some hungry people who are intent on trying to prove what a bad person Dan (and of course no mention of Phil) is.

Carry on reaching guys

YOU'RE the ones who are reaching. Making a huge deal about one incident. They were at his GIRLFRIENDS BIRTHDAY. even the pdp fandom didn't care this much. I don't know why you all seem to think Dan acknowledging this is a big deal. He doesn't have to, because it doesn't matter as much as you think it does. Do you really think they care what a handful of people on one forum think?

And i'm not trying to prove what a 'bad person' Dan is; i'm trying to show you how extra you're all being.

[katemko]

Oh man, I'm so lucky given my timezone when it comes to spooky/festive/etc week/month. It's almost 9:30 am where I am so they'll probably upload by the time I have my next class at 12:30. Bless y'all Europeans/people in Asia, I dunno how you do it.

[Light02]

As for the misogynistic slurs, so many people don't realize the connotations - the word "bitch", "pussy", "whore", even "twat" etc, are technically misogynistic insults but many of them are so intertwined with culture that it's not an active choice because no one has really truly considered their language or considers them as referring to exclusively females anymore. I'd be happy if D&P switched to gender-neutral or exclusively male-anatomy based curses but I'm not actively bothered by it because culturally it is different although I understand if others are.

Okay while I understand why people would not want to watch Felix anymore, (but don't understand why you'd feel differently towards Dan and Phil for being friends with him even though they know him much better than we do and they would know if he was a horrible person) I can't help but find this interesting.
You excuse these words because "people don't realize the connotations" and it is "intertwined with culture".
Now I have always found that the discussion around the N word is very much drained in ethnocentrism. I am not from the US or UK, English is not my native language, black slavery has never been a part of my history and culture the way it is for Americans. Where I live, I see people use the N word, without ill intent. Because they're exposed to it through American music, TV and even memes. The N word with hard r in my language was used until really recently (a brand used it in their name until 2006 even), and even today people sometimes use it because they're not aware it's not as politically correct anymore, especially older people use it and it just means black person to them.
What I'm getting at is, I am not Swedish so of course I can't say for sure how things are for Felix. But as for me, I learned how the N word was treated by English speaking people through the internet, and am aware how much it is seen as a horrible word, so I avoid using it online. But HONESTLY? It doesn't FEEL as bad to me. The same way I could tell you what the worst word in my language would be and you could avoid using it, but will you ever have the same emotional response to it?
Ever? And if you heard it everywhere, and constantly in online gaming are you sure you'd never let it slip?
I'm not entirely sure what it's like in Sweden, but I would like to ask you to wonder why you can excuse mysogynistic language based on modern context and culture, but not another word that never had quite the same weight to it in other countries.
Literally besides this pdp situation, it has always felt very americanocentric to me to uphold other countries to English countries' standards while using it in their media, knowing their media is the main one worldwide.

Yup, this is true as well. I also come from a country where everyone uses the n-word and it just means black person to us. (But there are no black people living in Bulgaria, so it's not like anyone can get offended. Furthermore, we never owned slaves because we ourselves were slaves to Turkish people in the past.) This just further proves my point that it's hard to say which issues are worse than one another and it all depends on what the general public decides to care about. It's very dependant on your specific culture and country, the time and also your own personal thoughts and experiences.

[missemma]

Do you really think they care what a handful of people on one forum think?

No, I don't think they care at all, but that doesn't stop users on here being able to express their opinions on the matter.

You may find that "extra" but if people want to express their upset/annoyance about it then they are free to do so. Everyone is entitled to their opinion at the end of the day.

[Catallena]

I'm again changing the subject, sorry.

What time do you recon they'll upload/they usually upload? I'm so out of this deppy thing nowadays that I just don't know anything anymore. The clock is nearing my bed time and I think I need to leave pretty much all the videos to the next morning, as they seem to be uploading pretty late (for me at least). Bla. Also I'm going to a school thingy from sunday morning to tuesday evening so if they do upload the baking video on monday, i seriously can't watch it until tuesday night. Buut at least i have something to wait for haha.

//on top of the page, ofc with these kind of off topic post....

Been wondering that too... I hope within the next hour? I don't think they'll establish a proper time schedule just cause it's Spooky Week.

If it's anything like gamingmas I seem to remember some days where it was down to the wire, almost midnight in the UK and we were still waiting on a video lmao. Proper time schedules are not a strength for them.

But since it's the first one I'd guess some time in the next 1-3 hours.

Some of my fondest memories in the phandom are Dan uploading at 5 in the morning after having finally finished editing. They've honestly done a lot better since then

Well said. It seems though like there are some hungry people who are intent on trying to prove what a bad person Dan (and of course no mention of Phil) is.

Carry on reaching guys

YOU'RE the ones who are reaching. Making a huge deal about one incident. They were at his GIRLFRIENDS BIRTHDAY. even the pdp fandom didn't care this much. I don't know why you all seem to think Dan acknowledging this is a big deal. He doesn't have to, because it doesn't matter as much as you think it does. Do you really think they care what a handful of people on one forum think?

And i'm not trying to prove what a 'bad person' Dan is; i'm trying to show you how extra you're all being.

Sis, you're really pulling out expired receipts from 2009. That's called reaching. Most of us were uneducated edgy pieces of shit and using what an 18 year old said years ago while having shown considerable growth since then by not saying shit like that anymore is weak. Nothing about that equates to being a grown ass man who panders to.. well people like you so it seems. You seem very desperate to excuse hid racism.. so maybe also your own? idk I'm reaching here.

[obscureDnPreference]

I just realized something and now I'm angry. People are outraged that D&P even associate with someone who said the n-word but Dan himself has literally said the word "hoe" at least once that I can remember which is a misogynistic slur and apparently no one cares. Can someone tell me what the difference is?

I am pretty sure dan has never said "hoe", or "thot" for that matter, in a way that didn't relate to a meme or was ironic. I'm also pretty sure he wasn't saying it in a derogatory way. After all, hoe gets thrown around a lot these days, and the connotations aren't nearly as bad as saying the n word.

(idk if i just turned myself into a hypocrite or not lol..)

Was this recently? If so, then yeah, it would be semi-hypocritical for us. (I say 'semi' because hoe is very different than the n-word. Still a slur. Still offensive, but it's different.) If not, then I'd say it's not hypocritical. Not because it's not offensive, but because people grow and learn from time. We've said this before with Dan. He's acted and said some not good stuff in his younger years, but he's grown (hopefully). That doesn't seem to be the case with pdp. He might be learning, but it's not like he said and did shitty stuff years ago. It was mere months.

But I don't know when Dan said it, so I'm just talking out of nowhere. If you could find videos, it would be much appreciated! Thanks!

I don't remember the exact video but it was a Sims video with Dab in it, so it must have been semi-recently.

And as a response to everyone who quoted me, the general argument you're making seems to be "misogyny and misogynistic language are so widespread that it's not that big of a deal". I completely disagree, if anything, I think that makes misogyny even worse, it shows how desensitizied everyone is to it, even women and people who pass as women (like me). Reminds me of the fact that the "adorkable misogynist" trope is still alive and well on TV. Here's a video on the topic:

Can you imagine if there was a similar trope called "the adorkable racist"? Most people would be outraged, as they should be! Racism is obviously a huge problem that needs to be talked about. But I can't help but notice that in comparison there are other societal issues that are just as important that the public is more desensitizied to and that get talked about more rarely.

Another example that I can give is ableism and ableist slurs. Most decent people nowadays agree that we shouldn't use the r-word as it used to be (or maybe it still is? I'm not sure.) a diagnosis and now is being used as an insult. But did you know that the word "stupid" also used to be a diagnosis? I only learned about this last year and it made me realize just how little ableism is talked about, how desensitizied everyone is to it and how widespread it is, despite the fact that the disabled community is arguably the most marginalized in society. Here's a post outlining problems disabled people face:

http://thediscourseblogs.tumblr.com/pos ... tual-thing

This got a bit off-topic but the point I'm making is that I don't necessarily think that certain slurs are worse than others, it's just that the issues the public takes seriously change and even though the word "stupid" is incredibly offensive and has an oppressive history behind it, currently nobody considers it a slur. So I don't agree that misogyny and misogynistic language isn't as bad as racism.

Just going to pop in to say that I wasn't excusing misogynistic language and apologize if it came off that way. I am maybe too sensitive when it comes to misogyny as I'm a woman in a male-dominated field and literally wrote my undergrad thesis on women facing sexism in this field.

I could talk A LOT about ableist and sexist language but it seems a bit tangential to our current conversation. I just wanted to clarify I wasn't excusing misogynistic language and apologize if it sounds like I was.

Edited to hide huge quote

[DatCog]

They've spookified their Twitters!! Hopefully video soon

[blackdenim]

They've spookified their Twitters!! Hopefully video soon

Dan's profile picture is A Choice. (I love it!)

[kuensukki]

As for the misogynistic slurs, so many people don't realize the connotations - the word "bitch", "pussy", "whore", even "twat" etc, are technically misogynistic insults but many of them are so intertwined with culture that it's not an active choice because no one has really truly considered their language or considers them as referring to exclusively females anymore. I'd be happy if D&P switched to gender-neutral or exclusively male-anatomy based curses but I'm not actively bothered by it because culturally it is different although I understand if others are.

Okay while I understand why people would not want to watch Felix anymore, (but don't understand why you'd feel differently towards Dan and Phil for being friends with him even though they know him much better than we do and they would know if he was a horrible person) I can't help but find this interesting.
You excuse these words because "people don't realize the connotations" and it is "intertwined with culture".
Now I have always found that the discussion around the N word is very much drained in ethnocentrism. I am not from the US or UK, English is not my native language, black slavery has never been a part of my history and culture the way it is for Americans. Where I live, I see people use the N word, without ill intent. Because they're exposed to it through American music, TV and even memes. The N word with hard r in my language was used until really recently (a brand used it in their name until 2006 even), and even today people sometimes use it because they're not aware it's not as politically correct anymore, especially older people use it and it just means black person to them.
What I'm getting at is, I am not Swedish so of course I can't say for sure how things are for Felix. But as for me, I learned how the N word was treated by English speaking people through the internet, and am aware how much it is seen as a horrible word, so I avoid using it online. But HONESTLY? It doesn't FEEL as bad to me. The same way I could tell you what the worst word in my language would be and you could avoid using it, but will you ever have the same emotional response to it?
Ever? And if you heard it everywhere, and constantly in online gaming are you sure you'd never let it slip?
I'm not entirely sure what it's like in Sweden, but I would like to ask you to wonder why you can excuse mysogynistic language based on modern context and culture, but not another word that never had quite the same weight to it in other countries.
Literally besides this pdp situation, it has always felt very americanocentric to me to uphold other countries to English countries' standards while using it in their media, knowing their media is the main one worldwide.

Yup, this is true as well. I also come from a country where everyone uses the n-word and it just means black person to us. (But there are no black people living in Bulgaria, so it's not like anyone can get offended. Furthermore, we never owned slaves because we ourselves were slaves to Turkish people in the past.) This just further proves my point that it's hard to say which issues are worse than one another and it all depends on what the general public decides to care about. It's very dependant on your specific culture and country, the time and also your own personal thoughts and experiences.

Problem i have with this is that you are old enough to be able to search up an issue and realize a word and its historical context, whether it happened in America or fucking Antartica. The origin of a slur never matters, the history doesn't get erased nor does the significance because whites in your country normalize the use of it. What bothers me so much is the acceptance that this is normal behavior and the inability for people to go and search about why this word is offensive and educate themselves. You are the product of your environment but you also have the capability to educate yourself and acknowledge and learn. Who cares if the word isn't offensive where you're from, ITS STILL A HARMFUL SLUR and just because your environment normalizes its doesn't mean IT IS RIGHT. Also the n-word is not the only think Felix said, it's just the most recent thing. Im kinda over trying to explain this, its like talking to a wall, or Jack Howard for that matter

Also lol at that out of context dan video.

[coffeepenguin]

Re: misogyny, it's a very different issue imo, because the big majority of the phandom are women, passing as women and AFAB, we as the audience know it, so WE have the power, deppy know it (and they've improved a lot during recent years, which is great because I couldn't in my right mind watch 2012 Dan and Phil with all their insecurities and Dan's "I look like a lesbian" jokes) and we also do actually have these discussions fairly regularly, even if we disagree in them quite a lot (I myself would like discussing it a bit more, but "fandom is my safe space" and "discourse is uncomfortable" still applies, so I understand why people wouldn't want that)

[missemma]

They've spookified their Twitters!! Hopefully video soon

I love Halloween for this reason. Phil's profile is 10/10.

[liola]

I hate spooky gaming videos because I hate jumpscares so I don't know why I'm waiting to watch a video that will probably trigger my anxiety except the fact that real life is shit and I have a funeral tomorrow and both my fandom are currently a mess so I can't even find a distraction

I hope Dan screams loud enough that he'll make me pass out for the next couple of days lol

Sorry can't really say much else about the pdp thing except I think this is long enough it might be useful to have a proper thread? Just an idea

[Light02]

As for the misogynistic slurs, so many people don't realize the connotations - the word "bitch", "pussy", "whore", even "twat" etc, are technically misogynistic insults but many of them are so intertwined with culture that it's not an active choice because no one has really truly considered their language or considers them as referring to exclusively females anymore. I'd be happy if D&P switched to gender-neutral or exclusively male-anatomy based curses but I'm not actively bothered by it because culturally it is different although I understand if others are.

Okay while I understand why people would not want to watch Felix anymore, (but don't understand why you'd feel differently towards Dan and Phil for being friends with him even though they know him much better than we do and they would know if he was a horrible person) I can't help but find this interesting.
You excuse these words because "people don't realize the connotations" and it is "intertwined with culture".
Now I have always found that the discussion around the N word is very much drained in ethnocentrism. I am not from the US or UK, English is not my native language, black slavery has never been a part of my history and culture the way it is for Americans. Where I live, I see people use the N word, without ill intent. Because they're exposed to it through American music, TV and even memes. The N word with hard r in my language was used until really recently (a brand used it in their name until 2006 even), and even today people sometimes use it because they're not aware it's not as politically correct anymore, especially older people use it and it just means black person to them.
What I'm getting at is, I am not Swedish so of course I can't say for sure how things are for Felix. But as for me, I learned how the N word was treated by English speaking people through the internet, and am aware how much it is seen as a horrible word, so I avoid using it online. But HONESTLY? It doesn't FEEL as bad to me. The same way I could tell you what the worst word in my language would be and you could avoid using it, but will you ever have the same emotional response to it?
Ever? And if you heard it everywhere, and constantly in online gaming are you sure you'd never let it slip?
I'm not entirely sure what it's like in Sweden, but I would like to ask you to wonder why you can excuse mysogynistic language based on modern context and culture, but not another word that never had quite the same weight to it in other countries.
Literally besides this pdp situation, it has always felt very americanocentric to me to uphold other countries to English countries' standards while using it in their media, knowing their media is the main one worldwide.

Yup, this is true as well. I also come from a country where everyone uses the n-word and it just means black person to us. (But there are no black people living in Bulgaria, so it's not like anyone can get offended. Furthermore, we never owned slaves because we ourselves were slaves to Turkish people in the past.) This just further proves my point that it's hard to say which issues are worse than one another and it all depends on what the general public decides to care about. It's very dependant on your specific culture and country, the time and also your own personal thoughts and experiences.

Problem i have with this is that you are old enough to be able to search up an issue and realize a word and its historical context, whether it happened in America or fucking Antartica. The origin of a slur never matters, the history doesn't get erased nor does the significance because whites in your country normalize the use of it. What bothers me so much is the acceptance that this is normal behavior and the inability for people to go and search about why this word is offensive and educate themselves. You are the product of your environment but you also have the capability to educate yourself and acknowledge and learn. Who cares if the word isn't offensive where you're from, ITS STILL A HARMFUL SLUR and just because your environment normalizes its doesn't mean IT IS RIGHT. Also the n-word is not the only think Felix said, it's just the most recent thing. Im kinda over trying to explain this, its like talking to a wall, or Jack Howard for that matter

Also lol at that out of context dan video.

I 100% agree with you and the point I was making was that this is wrong. I was pointing out how hypocritical society is when discussing different topics and it seems to me that this is happening in the Phandom as well. Please read my previous post where I explained myself better if you haven't. I was not in any way condoning Pewdiepie but now that I'm rereading the post I quoted I see that it came off that way. (Not saying that the person I quoted does excuse Pdp, I can't speak for them.)

[VengefulBlue]

love phil's spooky theme, but i'm honestly pretty unhappy with dan's. i have my own personal history with the original 'it' movie that i don't need to get into, but given the character is based on a rapist serial killer, i don't really think it's a good choice for a spooky name.

[obscureDnPreference]

love phil's spooky theme, but i'm honestly pretty unhappy with dan's. i have my own personal history with the original 'it' movie that i don't need to get into, but given the character is based on a rapist serial killer, i don't really think it's a good choice for a spooky name.

I honestly had no idea what it was based on. Huh. Interesting added context there (edit) not saying added context for Dan or anyone, just for me bc I didn't know.

[Light02]

Re: misogyny, it's a very different issue imo, because the big majority of the phandom are women, passing as women and AFAB, we as the audience know it, so WE have the power, deppy know it (and they've improved a lot during recent years, which is great because I couldn't in my right mind watch 2012 Dan and Phil with all their insecurities and Dan's "I look like a lesbian" jokes) and we also do actually have these discussions fairly regularly, even if we disagree in them quite a lot (I myself would like discussing it a bit more, but "fandom is my safe space" and "discourse is uncomfortable" still applies, so I understand why people wouldn't want that)

To me this begs the question of why are the majority of women/AFAB/women passing people okay with the use of misogynistic language? Again, the case seems to be desensetization and perhaps internalized misogyny. I didn't even know that sexual harassment was even a thing up until I was 16 and that whole Sam Pepper fiasco unfolded. When I read all the outraged comments I thought "Wait. So getting your ass pinched by strangers in public is a bad thing? I didn't know that!" because no one where I live ever talks about it. All the people that pass as girls just think it's normal because it happens to us all the time.

[goldenmermaid]

love phil's spooky theme, but i'm honestly pretty unhappy with dan's. i have my own personal history with the original 'it' movie that i don't need to get into, but given the character is based on a rapist serial killer, i don't really think it's a good choice for a spooky name.

I honestly had no idea what it was based on. Huh. Interesting added context there (edit) not saying added context for Dan or anyone, just for me bc I didn't know.

Yeah I didn't know this either and just had a quick google and couldn't find anything, would you mind explaining a bit more?

Edit: oh wait I think I know what you mean now!

[daichii]

I just caught up with the liveshow and I must say that I'm pretty disappointed. I completely understand how awkward the whole situation must be and Felix for sure has a good side, he was actually one of my favorite youtubers a few years ago so as someone who has to deal with racism on an almost daily basis it really hurt to see how low he has fallen.

What felt nice is how much D&P separated from what seemed to be a couple of years ago an almost perfect friendship (I even recall us speculating that them living in Brighton would be awesome as they would have PJ+Sophie and pdp+marzia to hang out with). I must say that I didn't expect a public announcement or video/photo, heck not even a tweet against pewdiepie so that's why I was waiting for the liveshow because the issue was brought up in it and in my opinion, the liveshow would have been a perfect place to elaborate more on it after talking to him. However, making no commentary on it feels like Dan's comment in his previous liveshow was nothing more than damage control.

People (not just Dan and Phil) hiding from this kind of topic makes me realize how much does society still need to work on and why it is no surprise that even in 2017 issues like racism still exist. How can we move forward if we don't denounce this and talk about it and try to educate others on it?

As someone else mentioned, I will draw my line on them making a collab with him but this definitely left a bad taste in my mouth.

[obscureDnPreference]

Re: misogyny, it's a very different issue imo, because the big majority of the phandom are women, passing as women and AFAB, we as the audience know it, so WE have the power, deppy know it (and they've improved a lot during recent years, which is great because I couldn't in my right mind watch 2012 Dan and Phil with all their insecurities and Dan's "I look like a lesbian" jokes) and we also do actually have these discussions fairly regularly, even if we disagree in them quite a lot (I myself would like discussing it a bit more, but "fandom is my safe space" and "discourse is uncomfortable" still applies, so I understand why people wouldn't want that)

To me this begs the question of why are the majority of women/AFAB/women passing people okay with the use of misogynistic language? Again, the case seems to be desensetization and perhaps internalized misogyny. I didn't even know that sexual harassment was even a thing up until I was 16 and that whole Sam Pepper fiasco unfolded. When I read all the outraged comments I thought "Wait. So getting your ass pinched by strangers in public is a bad thing? I didn't know that!" because no one where I live ever talks about it. All the people that pass as girls just think it's normal because it happens to us all the time.

When I was young, I was like 'why wouldn't you be flattered?' LOL

Now I understand because college-aged men tend to be..... not great to women. And literally 10 minutes ago I was followed to my car by a man who wanted my number.

Literally dude? I talked to him for two minutes earlier because he interrupted me and wanted to tell me God blessed me with an aura of beauty and awesome. gag me.

[autumnhearth]

They've spookified their Twitters!! Hopefully video soon

I love Halloween for this reason. Phil's profile is 10/10.

No it’s 11.

I’ll see myself out.

[VengefulBlue]

love phil's spooky theme, but i'm honestly pretty unhappy with dan's. i have my own personal history with the original 'it' movie that i don't need to get into, but given the character is based on a rapist serial killer, i don't really think it's a good choice for a spooky name.

I honestly had no idea what it was based on. Huh. Interesting added context there (edit) not saying added context for Dan or anyone, just for me bc I didn't know.

Yeah I didn't know this either and just had a quick google and couldn't find anything, would you mind explaining a bit more?

Edit: oh wait I think I know what you mean now!

yeah, for people who don't feel like searching for it: pennywise was (at least partially) inspired by john wayne gacy, who raped, tortured, and killed teenage boys

i kind of think that anything based off that character isn't a great spooky name for a vaguely queer guy with a young audience (though i'm sure dan didn't think of that, and most people wouldn't, it rubs me the wrong way)

[nihilist-toothpaste]

to kuensukki's post.

i actually cannot believe the turn this conversation has taken? what exactly is the argument here? the n word isnt bad bc people say it casually in some countries? it's ok for a swedish white man living in the uk with a global audience of tens of millions and deep knowledge of the internet to say the n word bc maybe they dont view it the same way in sweden? the n word is bad but so are misogynstic slurs? and this somehow relates to dnp staying friends with felix .. how?

this conversation has spiralled so far from the original point, which is that some people were disappointed and hurt by dnp's choice to stay friends with felix-- a man who has conscientiously used hate speech against black people and anti-semitic language to fuel his humor and in so doing provided a safe space for racists and neo-nazis to thrive on youtube. that's it. end of story. if you don't condone felix's actions and words then u should understand the disappointment being expressed. so why this alternative argument about misogyny? what is the relevance? i dont think anyone who is hurt by dnp's association with felix is trying to argue that casual misogyny is good or okay. in fact it's a serious issue that merits discussion on its own, and merits full attention. desensitization to casual sexism is a huge problem. but it's not related to this conversation, so what is the point youre trying to make? should people have said "i am disappointed by dan and phil's decision to go to felix's party, also i am disappointed by that one time they called tabitha a stinky hoe?" the two issues are unrelated, why would anyone have brought that up in this conversation? i feel like this response only underscores the reality that's been raised from the beginning of this whole conversation, which is that issues of race make (white) people so distinctly uncomfortably in this fandom, such that any serious discussion of racial politics needs to be diluted or else then overshadowed by something else (in this case, dan's use of the word 'hoe' i guess.... like actually what?)

and, just to clarify, there are, i'm sure, hundreds of words in many languages that are considered 'swears' or 'rude' and yes some of them are even meant to demean certain groups of people, but the n word in particular is an incredibly painful word for an entire race of people because of centuries of history in which white people actively, intentionally used it to maintain dominion over black slaves, and then continued to use it even after emancipation of slaves to continue their active dehumanization of freed black people. millions of black people were not just called the n word by name, as the extent of their discrimination, they were treated as property, they were beaten and killed for trying to escape from their bonds, or even for just existing, all while this word was used against them.

slut shaming women is bad, obviously. structural misogyny is bad. but don't try to compare the judgment a women undergoes for her sexual choices to the history of active and horrific violence used to subjugate black people not just in america but so so many other white-dominated western countries. that's the reason there's caution around the use of the n word, where it might not exist around words like 'pussy' or 'bitch' or 'hoe.' the n word is a word that is deeply rooted in violence and bloodshed. it's deeply rooted in hatred. it's HATE speech. it's not just a swear. it's not the same scale at all, and YOUR decision that 'misogyny is as bad as racism' (why the fuck do they need to be compared????!!?!?!? and we are talking about racism specifically in this convo!!) is largely immaterial to the conversation that's taking place. if you think there should have been an outpouring of hurt and disappointment like this bc of dan using the word 'hoe' in a joking manner about tabitha, not to slutshame an actual woman, then it feels like a profound misunderstanding of the weight and history of the n word and i'll just redirect u back up to my second paragraph and then to google.