IDB

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:33 pm**

I literally only post on Facebook when I have something to promote, even though it's not like I have fans there, and I use my professional Twitter only to promote things or when I think my thought is clever and relevant to that audience; I think we all have social media platforms we use for different purposes, and especially when someone has personal and professional social media accounts, their professional ones tend towards branding and audience engagement? I would love Dan to engage his audience more (or differently tbh) as much as the next person, but I think the reason that his Twitter usage rubs a lot of us the wrong way is because it's a change from previous D&P times, not because there's anything inherently wrong with making some vaguely funny or relatable jokes with you feels like it or have something to promote, and otherwise occupying your time elsewhere. He's not giving us consistency, but I think we've all gotten by now that that's how he wants it to be, and while it might not be a great business strategy, we've proven that we're still here and he's proven that optimizing his audience engagement is not a priority for him.

(Mandy's point about the money they make from liveshows is also important, I think; we like things they do that directly provide them with income, like liveshows and videos. The fact that they're making money from them doesn't make them exploitative. It's a mutually beneficial relationship, even though it's one that is built via capitalism. Personally, I love a lot of the content we've gotten that exists largely to promote projects or products, from IRL's merch photo shoot IG stories to the Dan & Phil & Dogs vid to Truth Bombs videos. If recent Dan tweets are motivated by promoting something he'll be making money from, the tweets themselves won't become interesting on the level of any of that to me, but they also won't become exploitative.)

Hi @liola, obviously I'm not an influencer, but I'm also not an idiot. I never said we should hold influencers and normal people to the same behavior. My point is that even normal people use social media to promote things all the time, so obviously influencers whose literal job it is do that.

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:37 pm**

Templeofshame wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:33 pm I literally only post on Facebook when I have something to promote, even though it's not like I have fans there, and I use my professional Twitter only to promote things or when I think my thought is clever and relevant to that audience; I think we all have social media platforms we use for different purposes, and especially when someone has personal and professional social media accounts, their professional ones tend towards branding and audience engagement? I would love Dan to engage his audience more (or differently tbh) as much as the next person, but I think the reason that his Twitter usage rubs a lot of us the wrong way is because it's a change from previous D&P times, not because there's anything inherently wrong with making some vaguely funny or relatable jokes with you feels like it or have something to promote, and otherwise occupying your time elsewhere. He's not giving us consistency, but I think we've all gotten by now that that's how he wants it to be, and while it might not be a great business strategy, we've proven that we're still here and he's proven that optimizing his audience engagement is not a priority for him.

You are not an influencer though so there's no point in this comparison, we've already discussed why influencers and normal users do not (and shouldn't )act the same, honestly I've already discussed this with old stakanoh too much to repeat myself. What Dan is doing is not even professional or branding, just poor communication, which again isn't a deadly sin and he's allowed to but I will comment on it, its my professional indulgence.

And you're right, it's something we all got by now but it still irritates some people, what can you do

alittledizzy wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:28 pm
liola wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:15 pm I wasn't trying to say Dan is our friend, I was specifically making a metaphor on the friend who texts vs the friend who does it for opportunity, I thought that was clear.

And the problem with Dan here isn't in the way he replies or doesn't reply, it's the way he withdraws any type of communication - and let it be known, relatable tweets with no substance to it or liked posts is not what I mean with communication. I mean actually talking to the audience, not about personal things and not even about his project if it's not ready, but he could say something about what he's doing, reply to the questions of people or just making it feel like he wants to share something with the audience - even if he did a liveshow/livetweeting of commentary of ff7 would feel better (and kayy, I'm biased)

I would just respect it more if he said the things about his projects or for once said why he's disappeared instead of hiding it in the replies and just avoid talking and ignoring the questions that have been asked for a year. That will forever be the issue here.

And about the amount of people to texts... consider it a group text then, like I said it was a metaphor - a comparison with how Dan vs Phil engage since you said it was the same thing, not dan/phil vs a friend.
I respect that everything you said above is how you want Dan to act.

It's just not who Dan is. Not now, and in my opinion, not ever in a healthy way. He used to be an anxious snappy mess most of the time when he did liveshows. His cycle of oversharing, hating the interpretations around what he said, lashing back out, getting comfortable and oversharing again were painful for me to watch. So like yeah, he was sharing himself while not directly promoting anything (except for making money off of the liveshows), but clearly at a cost to himself.

And I know a lot of people view having empathy for Dan as a weakness or something fans shouldn't do, but I can't help but view him as an entire person and not just the entertainer I want to entertain me. I think that's just a factor of coming at fandom from being a fan of them as people vs them as entertainers and I'm not trying to say anyone that sees it any other way is wrong for it even if I can't personally grasp the 'empathy is bad' approach. I accept what I cannot understand as no less valid just because I can't understand it.

Amiaw wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:25 pm Something else that doesn’t sit right is that Phil does a thing - tells us about a zoom call with his family, posts a video, talks about his career- and immediately there are several posts about how people bet dan was there helping him along because some people have a hard time accepting a phil thing as a phil thing and not making it a vehicle for Dan. It has to be discouraging for him to have a liveshow or post a new video and see so many questions about dan. I honestly wouldn’t be surprised if he doesn’t blacklist his name after this last video.
I do agree with this.

The lack of Phil engagement even on the forum has made me really sad. I stopped doing liveshow timestamps because it was just like... no one cared, no one was really responding to them even when I specifically tried to do my timestamps in a way that would inspire conversation about things Phil said.

I would love it if people showed up to talk about Phil as much as they do express opinions about Dan.

Ok wait a second who the hell is saying empathy is bad? Who here, on this forum or even in my posts, is saying "empathy towards Dan is bad and shouldn't be shared"? Because I don't believe that applies here, and since you're replying to me I kinda take offence, I'm going to be honest. Everyone is empathetic of Dan, everyone understand that it must be hard and in all my posts I personally always says that he is allowed to do. And feel whatever the fuck he wants and feels because he is human and it's his career and life. But that doesn't mean you cannot criticize him when he does something badly, that isn't a lack of empathy come on! You can have be empathetic while also acknowledging when he doesn't act in the way he "should" and by should I mean in a way that would be fair in a communication/media/influencer way in relationship to the audience, because this is a two way relationship, believe it or not.

Dan is a person and so he's flawed and because I do not know him personally I can only comment on the things he does share with us in the professional way, I thought that was the point of fandom, sharing opinions.

If you think that's somehow lacking empathy then I guess I've been wrong a lot.

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:43 pm**

Templeofshame wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:33 pm
(Mandy's point about the money they make from liveshows is also important, I think; we like things they do that directly provide them with income, like liveshows and videos. The fact that they're making money from them doesn't make them exploitative. It's a mutually beneficial relationship, even though it's one that is built via capitalism. Personally, I love a lot of the content we've gotten that exists largely to promote projects or products, from IRL's merch photo shoot IG stories to the Dan & Phil & Dogs vid to Truth Bombs videos. If recent Dan tweets are motivated by promoting something he'll be making money from, the tweets themselves won't become interesting on the level of any of that to me, but they also won't become exploitative.)

Sorry double post cause I just saw this but no one is saying that things they make for money are inherently bad, everything they do can be seen as made for money, but there's a difference in doing your job and letting people enjoy it and stopping doing your job, completely disappearing and creating a pattern where you start engaging briefly only to actively promote things that will get you money then disappear. This is the issue, and you bet Dan noticed from the damage control post he made the second to last merch drop he did, because he realized people weren't that happy with that behaviour (but of course he had things to sell cause there is work behind it and also they have employee to pay)

I've always been very vocally supportive of dnp are businessmen, most people here are

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:44 pm**

liola wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:37 pm
alittledizzy wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:28 pm
liola wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:15 pm I wasn't trying to say Dan is our friend, I was specifically making a metaphor on the friend who texts vs the friend who does it for opportunity, I thought that was clear.

And the problem with Dan here isn't in the way he replies or doesn't reply, it's the way he withdraws any type of communication - and let it be known, relatable tweets with no substance to it or liked posts is not what I mean with communication. I mean actually talking to the audience, not about personal things and not even about his project if it's not ready, but he could say something about what he's doing, reply to the questions of people or just making it feel like he wants to share something with the audience - even if he did a liveshow/livetweeting of commentary of ff7 would feel better (and kayy, I'm biased)

I would just respect it more if he said the things about his projects or for once said why he's disappeared instead of hiding it in the replies and just avoid talking and ignoring the questions that have been asked for a year. That will forever be the issue here.

And about the amount of people to texts... consider it a group text then, like I said it was a metaphor - a comparison with how Dan vs Phil engage since you said it was the same thing, not dan/phil vs a friend.
I respect that everything you said above is how you want Dan to act.

It's just not who Dan is. Not now, and in my opinion, not ever in a healthy way. He used to be an anxious snappy mess most of the time when he did liveshows. His cycle of oversharing, hating the interpretations around what he said, lashing back out, getting comfortable and oversharing again were painful for me to watch. So like yeah, he was sharing himself while not directly promoting anything (except for making money off of the liveshows), but clearly at a cost to himself.

And I know a lot of people view having empathy for Dan as a weakness or something fans shouldn't do, but I can't help but view him as an entire person and not just the entertainer I want to entertain me. I think that's just a factor of coming at fandom from being a fan of them as people vs them as entertainers and I'm not trying to say anyone that sees it any other way is wrong for it even if I can't personally grasp the 'empathy is bad' approach. I accept what I cannot understand as no less valid just because I can't understand it.
Ok wait a second who the hell is saying empathy is bad? Who here, on this forum or even in my posts, is saying "empathy towards Dan is bad and shouldn't be shared"? Because I don't believe that applies here, and since you're replying to me I kinda take offence, I'm going to be honest. Everyone is empathetic of Dan, everyone understand that it must be hard and in all my posts I personally always says that he is allowed to do. And feel whatever the fuck he wants and feels because he is human and it's his career and life. But that doesn't mean you cannot criticize him when he does something badly, that isn't a lack of empathy come on! You can have be empathetic while also acknowledging when he doesn't act in the way he "should" and by should I mean in a way that would be fair in a communication/media/influencer way in relationship to the audience, because this is a two way relationship, believe it or not.

Dan is a person and so he's flawed and because I do not know him personally I can only comment on the things he does share with us in the professional way, I thought that was the point of fandom, sharing opinions.

If you think that's somehow lacking empathy then I guess I've been wrong a lot.

I said it's 'a view' not your view - and I specifically said it because every time I post non-critical opinions of Dan people get upset. I was expressly trying to say that just because someone is taking a viewpoint of being upset about how he interacts on social media and that opinion not being influenced by his mental health doesn't mean I don't respect the opinion or people shouldn't express them.

The general way these conversations go is someone complains about Dan - someone else starts to talk about his mental health/decisions he's made - the initial person gets upset saying they feel like they can't criticize Dan because fans are too protective/not critical enough. I now always try to include a disclaimer similar to that in all my posts so people can't derail the conversation to say they aren't being allowed to share their opinion. Maybe I haven't used the word 'empathetic' before but I've still said essentially the same thing at least once in almost every conversation I've been a part of on this topic.

I'm sorry if you're offended by it. But if you haven't expressed that opinion before, then you should feel secure in knowing that it doesn't apply to you.

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:52 pm**

I just don't think empathy is the right word, and implying that people who criticize Dan (I dislike the word complaining, it's a critique when it's poised with motivations behind it, can we not use the word complain? It makes the point seems like whining toddlers) - people who criticize Dan do not feel empathy for him. That's what your post sounded like to me, as someone who criticize Dan a lot I replied to that. Empathy is a big disclaimer imo.

These discussions are tiring because they all go always in the same way, which is why I had stopped engaging - Its tiring for both parties. My problem with this it's that it always feel like the other party is trying to make me, for example, change opinion, providing the "excuse" (not the right word can't remember the one right now) of Dan's mental health almost like a guilt tripping. That's how it feels personally

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:54 pm**

liola wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:52 pm I just don't think empathy is the right word, and implying that people who criticize Dan (I dislike the word complaining, it's a critique when it's poised with motivations behind it, can we not use the word complain? It makes the point seems like whining toddlers) - people who criticize Dan do not feel empathy for him. That's what your post sounded like to me, as someone who criticize Dan a lot I replied to that. Empathy is a big disclaimer imo.

These discussions are tiring because they all go always in the same way, which is why I had stopped engaging - Its tiring for both parties. My problem with this it's that it always feel like the other party is trying to make me, for example, change opinion, providing the "excuse" (not the right word can't remember the one right now) of Dan's mental health almost like a guilt tripping. That's how it feels personally

It's a conversation to me, not an attempt to change someone's mind.

I don't engage with opinions that I disagree with that people post on their personal social media because I'm not going to go into their space and challenge what they think.

But on the forum, I do view any opinion posted as an open invitation to counter it with what I feel (or agree, if I agree!). I don't expect to change your mind, for sure. I'm not trying to. But I do, especially on IDB which has such a tendency to only be active with negative topics these days, I find value in expanding the conversation and providing those counterpoints. Ideally what would happen is that people who see us talking get to view the conversation from both sides and then join in with their opinion or analysis.

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:00 pm**

alittledizzy wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:54 pm
liola wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:52 pm I just don't think empathy is the right word, and implying that people who criticize Dan (I dislike the word complaining, it's a critique when it's poised with motivations behind it, can we not use the word complain? It makes the point seems like whining toddlers) - people who criticize Dan do not feel empathy for him. That's what your post sounded like to me, as someone who criticize Dan a lot I replied to that. Empathy is a big disclaimer imo.

These discussions are tiring because they all go always in the same way, which is why I had stopped engaging - Its tiring for both parties. My problem with this it's that it always feel like the other party is trying to make me, for example, change opinion, providing the "excuse" (not the right word can't remember the one right now) of Dan's mental health almost like a guilt tripping. That's how it feels personally
It's a conversation to me, not an attempt to change someone's mind.

I don't engage with opinions that I disagree with that people post on their personal social media because I'm not going to go into their space and challenge what they think.

But on the forum, I do view any opinion posted as an open invitation to counter it with what I feel (or agree, if I agree!). I don't expect to change your mind, for sure. I'm not trying to. But I do, especially on IDB which has such a tendency to only be active with negative topics these days, I find value in expanding the conversation and providing those counterpoints. Ideally what would happen is that people who see us talking get to view the conversation from both sides and then join in with their opinion or analysis.

And that is the same reason why I like to engage on the forum, to me fandom is conversation about something we're all passionate about and a forum provide the best way to say anything we think.

My problem is that just because someone points something different, then that post is immediately marked as negative. It's not. It's an opinion. I don't consider my opinions negative because we shouldn't put that bias on someone's thinking, opinions aren't black and white (therapist words not mine, trying to take example here)

It's tiring to always feel like having the negative, bad, boo you're making always sad opinion, btw. Makes it less fun to engage. And when you make it sound like criticizing Dan or Phil means having no empathy like only someone who is "defending" (other word I don't like much) them is empathetic and others aren't.. That's my problem with this conversation here, and I'm sharing it publicly so lurkers can have both sides of it (and I don't get shit for it either)

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:05 pm**

Templeofshame wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:33 pm
Hi @liola, obviously I'm not an influencer, but I'm also not an idiot. I never said we should hold influencers and normal people to the same behavior. My point is that even normal people use social media to promote things all the time, so obviously influencers whose literal job it is do that.

Sorry other double post but the tag function isn't working so I didn't see this.

I never implied you were an idiot and never would I, I just replied to your first statement about your use of socials which obviously isn't the same. No one here is saying dnp can't use their platform to promote things, just that it's bad taste when you're an influencer and use it just for that and barely engage in other ways, which is why people were immediately suspicious when Dan posted 3 days in a row (mostly joking)

It's part of their job you're right, but that's not the only thing, that's really it

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:10 pm**

liola wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:00 pm
alittledizzy wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:54 pm
liola wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 3:52 pm I just don't think empathy is the right word, and implying that people who criticize Dan (I dislike the word complaining, it's a critique when it's poised with motivations behind it, can we not use the word complain? It makes the point seems like whining toddlers) - people who criticize Dan do not feel empathy for him. That's what your post sounded like to me, as someone who criticize Dan a lot I replied to that. Empathy is a big disclaimer imo.

These discussions are tiring because they all go always in the same way, which is why I had stopped engaging - Its tiring for both parties. My problem with this it's that it always feel like the other party is trying to make me, for example, change opinion, providing the "excuse" (not the right word can't remember the one right now) of Dan's mental health almost like a guilt tripping. That's how it feels personally
It's a conversation to me, not an attempt to change someone's mind.

I don't engage with opinions that I disagree with that people post on their personal social media because I'm not going to go into their space and challenge what they think.

But on the forum, I do view any opinion posted as an open invitation to counter it with what I feel (or agree, if I agree!). I don't expect to change your mind, for sure. I'm not trying to. But I do, especially on IDB which has such a tendency to only be active with negative topics these days, I find value in expanding the conversation and providing those counterpoints. Ideally what would happen is that people who see us talking get to view the conversation from both sides and then join in with their opinion or analysis.
And that is the same reason why I like to engage on the forum, to me fandom is conversation about something we're all passionate about and a forum provide the best way to say anything we think.

My problem is that just because someone points something different, then that post is immediately marked as negative. It's not. It's an opinion. I don't consider my opinions negative because we shouldn't put that bias on someone's thinking, opinions aren't black and white (therapist words not mine, trying to take example here)

It's tiring to always feel like having the negative, bad, boo you're making always sad opinion, btw. Makes it less fun to engage. And when you make it sound like criticizing Dan or Phil means having no empathy like only someone who is "defending" (other word I don't like much) them is empathetic and others aren't.. That's my problem with this conversation here, and I'm sharing it publicly so lurkers can have both sides of it (and I don't get shit for it either)

I find it less fun to engage when I can't counter someone without it being framed like I'm not allowing them to have an opinion. I'll retract the word empathy but I think the rest of the point still stands. Some of us view this from the perspective of what we want from Dan as an entertainer, and some of us come at it more from a perspective of analyzing Dan's actions through the lens of him as a person and the culmination of his career/mental health.

What we can agree on: everyone can post their opinions, and everyone is welcome to engage. Now I'd really like to keep on the topic of Dan and Phil, so if you want to discuss vocabulary semantics like what constitutes a negative opinion, you're welcome to message me privately.

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:18 pm**

(@liola I forgot to quote but I was responding to your "social media isn't for that [promoting things], it's to... keep social" which I may have been misunderstanding; on looking back, it seems like you may have meant that Phil's social media specifically isn't for that? I would still disagree but it would make more sense to me with your responses.)

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:21 pm**

I was surprised to see people saying they’re sad there isn’t more Phil discussion and content and everyone only talks about Dan (I saw the same thing on tumblr earlier), because that’s the opposite of my experience on Tumblr, which is why I like the balance of coming here too - it’s probably because I follow 90% Phillies (I would love to follow more Dannies, but we’re a bit of an endangered species these days I feel like, which is entirely understandable to be fair), but I see way more Phil stuff on my dash - probably because, y’know, there are actually things to talk about, but also when Dan *does* do something I still see lots of posts about Phil, to the point where I started to wonder if it was deliberate.

I do like seeing stuff about them both, of course! The more the merrier. And I would love it if people responded to anything Dan does with the same positivity and happiness they do when Phil does, but that’s never been the case and I doubt it will be any time soon. (Not across the board, of course.) (Disclaimer: this is my experience based on who I follow and what I see, I’m sure it’s different for everyone.)

When this convo was going around earlier, I agreed with the posts that said a lot of the mentions of Dan are because people just miss him, it isn’t because they don’t want to see Phil or his content. (That - might be true for some people? But I haven’t seen it at all, and I feel sad for them if so, they’re missing out.) Yes, it might be frustrating for Phil that people are always asking about Dan (though I’m sure he’s used to it by now), but where else are they gonna ask? People just want some answers, and while of course it isn’t Phil’s place to provide them, Dan just - hasn’t been talking to us. I did notice the number of likes and retweets on Dan’s latest inconsequential (imo, still nice to see him around tho) tweets vs say Phil’s new video tweet, and I thought that was a bit of a shame, but Dan has been *so* absent that every time he pops up it’s kind of an Event, whereas Phil has been a consistent presence throughout (which I’m so grateful for).

Someone suggested Dan’s active spree could be because he’s bored in lockdown and isn’t getting any of the engagement he usually would so has had to resort to twitter, haha, but who knows. I’ll admit when I saw him tweet for a second and then a third time, I did think, ‘is he about to try and sell us something?’ then I sort of chided myself because that’s perhaps a bit uncharitable. But - that *has* been the case the last couple of times, so you know, not entirely unfair, but I’m hoping it’s just - you know, being social on social media, rather than some sort of Influencer Strategy. (LOL, as if Dan has a strategy)

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:26 pm**

Templeofshame wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:18 pm (@liola I forgot to quote but I was responding to your "social media isn't for that [promoting things], it's to... keep social" which I may have been misunderstanding; on looking back, it seems like you may have meant that Phil's social media specifically isn't for that? I would still disagree but it would make more sense to me with your responses.)

Last post on this, I meant that social media isn't specifically for promoting stuff, that's not its main goal and it's not just for that, its main purpose is to be social, and that's the main use Phil does except when he posts a video, he has more balance but also uses it a bit more to talk compared to promote, at least in recent years, before he was less social.

That's more what I meant but in way less words haha

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:44 pm**

My thoughts on Dan changes frequently, but one thing is for sure the reason why we are all still here on a forum is because we all care about him and want the best for him. I am happy that he has been more active lately, but part of me does wonder why and after yesterdays tweet my first thought was that he is going to try and sell us something. I hope his project is near as then we would get answers, but i get why people are pissed about it, because nearly a whole month he didn't engage with his audience and some people were genuinely worried about him so to just communicate would be shitty. I get Dan isn't our friend but the reason i and so many started watching youtubers such as dan and phil is because they gave a feel of friendship and like you actually knew them, compared to other celebrities.

In regards to Phil, he has been a rock through all thisx providing us with regular interaction via tweets, instagram, liveshows, videos on youtube etc and I think if he was to stop then i would imagine that people would miss him (i sure would).

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:51 pm**

Hey, I just checked Phil's latest video (I've mentioned I loved it, right? and me a Dannie).

Anyway, "Making whipped tiktok Coffee - Easter Edition!" is #50 on trending. So that's awesome! :newyear:

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:14 pm**

lefthandedism wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 4:51 pm Hey, I just checked Phil's latest video (I've mentioned I loved it, right? and me a Dannie).

Anyway, "Making whipped tiktok Coffee - Easter Edition!" is #50 on trending. So that's awesome!

Yay to Phil appreciation!!

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:42 pm**

Yes, im going to repeat the exact same thing as everyone else - this tumblr post from october someone brought up somewhere in here a while ago stinks horribly like a panic-induced-poorly-executed damage control ramble(probably written with shaky hands in 20-30 minutes after he noticed the shitstorm he had caused, performed a quick spelling and PUNCTUATION check, or got his bf to do that for him, since he does seem to struggle with that one a lot which he's proven in the past, hit post and went to get an anxiety pill... Or maybe without the last part, i dunno, i might be the only one loading myself up on pharmaceuticals when im panickin'... Yea, im ramblin, just ignore that) from the 50 mile radius here, homie. But im also going to say that at least i appreciate the fact he was the one who wrote this - i'd never ever believe it could be written by anyone who knows shit about marketing(either professionally or even hobbistically).
Sorry if my tone turns out as bitter and sarastic, but that's exactly how it is supposed to sound - im just kinda pissed(it appears i aint the onlg one lol) that after 10 years of supporting them both and providing them with income enough so that they dont starve to death, his fans(i personally consider myself as a time to time lurker, not really a fan) are getting treated like this by him - seemingly vaporizing for months, then magically matterializing himself just to ask to give him money, dissappear again just to do the exact thing months later making a habit out of this to the point of when he suddenly pops up again with a tweet or ig story people consider this as "content"(!) and starting to get suspicious wondering what is he gonna try to sell them this time or overall what id this about. Like, it aint a normal and healthy situation at all, for anybody,not himself nor the people who's been asking and preaching for an answer to basic questions for a long time. And yes, im being negative and bitter again, but honest to god, it's hard not to be.
Plus, i dont understand what all of this has to do with empathy now? Of course he's human, obviously, of course we dont know what's he up to and what's goin on inside anybody elses head, but I feel like he got more than enough of this empathy already. Righg now, i just think it's making up more excuses for his behavior(there's been enough of those already as well) at this point. Nobody's standing there with a gun to his head tellin him to expose all of his private and(possible) job-related life(if there even is any, like i said before), but c'mon. The shit he's pulling off lately is straight up disrespectful for people who fed them for the past decade, anxiety and depression or not. 99% of people i this world experienced(and still is) both at some point in their lives, but they aint being babysat and protected from it at all costs like he was & is. Plus no.2, we're not talking about a child here, but a grown-ass man, he's almost 30 years old. He should know how to deal with his states of mind, dont you think?

Anyways, this discusion about it all is kinda pointless, it always leads nowhere - and it'll stay like that, unless he changes his attitude. Maybe i just show no "empathy" because" i never was a die-for fan of them and didnt even know who that was for most of the time before(and not bein' invested much in any youtubers)raised in Detroit during its bankrupcy times when you always had to fend up for youself, no matter how old you were, i just approach all this from a different angle and see it all differently as a consequence, y' know.

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:52 pm**

I’ve always understood why he might have needed the break and withdrawn, I say might because he hasn’t told us beyond why he stopped making main channel videos specifically, and I get it cos I’ve had enough trouble with anxiety and work myself, but I’ve also found the silent disappearance and popping back before announcing something to be pretty crap. It’s possible to see him as both an entertainer and a human being, they’re not exclusive.

I get that maybe he hadn’t said he was going because it was too awkward, that’s my guess anyway. Why he might not realise or care that it looks uncaring to only talk to us to announce things, I don’t know. I’m beyond keeping on feeling bad about it, though, and I like him a lot so I’m still falling over him when he appears.

Also yay for Phil’s video to be trending. It was number 12 at one point apparently.

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:56 pm**

Morganaa wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:42 pm Yes, im going to repeat the exact same thing as everyone else - this tumblr post from october someone brought up somewhere in here a while ago stinks horribly like a panic-induced-poorly-executed damage control ramble(probably written with shaky hands in 20-30 minutes after he noticed the shitstorm he had caused, performed a quick spelling and PUNCTUATION check, or got his bf to do that for him, since he does seem to struggle with that one a lot which he's proven in the past, hit post and went to get an anxiety pill... Or maybe without the last part, i dunno, i might be the only one loading myself up on pharmaceuticals when im panickin'... Yea, im ramblin, just ignore that) from the 50 mile radius here, homie. But im also going to say that at least i appreciate the fact he was the one who wrote this - i'd never ever believe it could be written by anyone who knows shit about marketing(either professionally or even hobbistically).
Sorry if my tone turns out as bitter and sarastic, but that's exactly how it is supposed to sound - im just kinda pissed(it appears i aint the onlg one lol) that after 10 years of supporting them both and providing them with income enough so that they dont starve to death, his fans(i personally consider myself as a time to time lurker, not really a fan) are getting treated like this by him - seemingly vaporizing for months, then magically matterializing himself just to ask to give him money, dissappear again just to do the exact thing months later making a habit out of this to the point of when he suddenly pops up again with a tweet or ig story people consider this as "content"(!) and starting to get suspicious wondering what is he gonna try to sell them this time or overall what id this about. Like, it aint a normal and healthy situation at all, for anybody,not himself nor the people who's been asking and preaching for an answer to basic questions for a long time. And yes, im being negative and bitter again, but honest to god, it's hard not to be.
Plus, i dont understand what all of this has to do with empathy now? Of course he's human, obviously, of course we dont know what's he up to and what's goin on inside anybody elses head, but I feel like he got more than enough of this empathy already. Righg now, i just think it's making up more excuses for his behavior(there's been enough of those already as well) at this point. Nobody's standing there with a gun to his head tellin him to expose all of his private and(possible) job-related life(if there even is any, like i said before), but c'mon. The shit he's pulling off lately is straight up disrespectful for people who fed them for the past decade, anxiety and depression or not. 99% of people i this world experienced(and still is) both at some point in their lives, but they aint being babysat and protected from it at all costs like he was & is. Plus no.2, we're not talking about a child here, but a grown-ass man, he's almost 30 years old. He should know how to deal with his states of mind, dont you think?

Anyways, this discusion about it all is kinda pointless, it always leads nowhere - and it'll stay like that, unless he changes his attitude. Maybe i just show no "empathy" because" i never was a die-for fan of them and didnt even know who that was for most of the time before(and not bein' invested much in any youtubers)raised in Detroit during its bankrupcy times when you always had to fend up for youself, no matter how old you were, i just approach all this from a different angle and see it all differently as a consequence, y' know.

I get where you are coming from, but joking about someone having to take anxiety pills is not something to joke about. And no offense but their 'fans' haven't been just handing them money. The only times have been via merch (which people can choose if they buy or not) or via their shows which they worked damn hard on (again people could choose if they go or not). Just because his nearly 30 doesn't mean he suddenly doesn't feel emotions and suffer with mental health. He has been working on it with seeing therapists etc and maybe youtube has contributed to him suffering with his mental health (which he mentioned in BIG that it did). I dunno I'm not self entitled so i accept that dan and phil are their own people and can release content if they want or don't want, its not like they are asking for money for nothing)

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:09 pm**

I have so much to say about so much i've read on the last three pages, lol, I'm trying to organize my thoughts (and hope I have time because we're in the homeschooling learning curve land here at my house). But-

Morganaa wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 5:42 pm Plus no.2, we're not talking about a child here, but a grown-ass man, he's almost 30 years old. He should know how to deal with his states of mind, dont you think?

I really have to address this as someone who had their mental breakdown after the age of 30 and didn't get their shit sorted out right then and who has been in the process of sorting their stuff out for years. This is, even if it's not meant to be, very hurtful. I'm a grown woman who struggles with her state of mind at various points because of my mental illness. I know lots of people in fandom do or have experience with mental illness. I don't ever want to feel like there's a time limit or expiration date on my wellness (particularly since wellness is an always moving target for me); I would never expect that of anyone else dealing with any mental illness, including anxiety, depression and ptsd (not talking about me there). I think as far as his states of mind, I can never know then, nor would I ever have an expectation of when or if or how he should know how to deal with them. Or what dealing with them even means. You know?

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:18 pm**

I don't have a ton to add, but there doesn't seem to be much else going on so why not.

I've never had a problem with either Dan or Phil taking a step back when they need to (or honestly, when they just want to). They have both opened up a bit about the toll that their jobs have had on their personal and mental health (Phil in Draw My Life 2, in particular, and Dan in the muckbang as well as elsewhere). In both of those videos, they opened up about stressors and situations that we didn't know about at the time - including situations that I don't feel at all entitled to know (Phil's dad having cancer, Dan having a mental breakdown before ii, etc.)

Would I prefer Dan to keep us more in the loop regarding his projects and mental well-being, or even his daily existence? I'm honestly not even sure. If it is better for him to wait and announce something when it is set in stone, rather than when it could still fall through/be moved/etc., then I'm fine with that. As far as mental health goes, I know that when I'm depressed/anxious the last thing I want to do is admit that I'm unable to perform as usual, so if that's the case I get where he's coming from by staying silent. There are definitely instances where being open and up front can be helpful and save face, so to speak, but I don't know what's going on in his life and I can't say whether now is one of those times. If I get tired of waiting around and don't invest my time/money in his next project, then so be it - and I really hope that he feels the same way. I've always felt that Dan and Phil have been really good about letting people invest their time and money in their projects (videos, games, shows, merch, etc.) to the extent that they want to and can afford, without making less "devoted" (or "wealthy") fans feel lesser.

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:30 pm**

Breaking my own rule for a minute to discuss why dan’s mental health is always brought up as a reason for his current relationship with us.
It’s funny because I saw a tumblr post recently about Phil and someone said they were worried about how he was handling this lockdown and the reply was that Phil shouldn’t be infantilized and he had the support system to make sure he was okay and I agree with that. I saw people on this forum reblog that post too but that sentiment only applies to Phil? Phil’s also experienced several serious things that we know about and he has admitted he has anxiety but it’s not something that anyone brings up to excuse him or explain away behavior so why do we continue to woobify Daniel? Is it because he made a few videos about it? Does it make it our concern because he talked about it a few years ago? That dan has been gone for awhile. We don’t even know him anymore since he said himself he’s always changing.
The Dan we have now doesn’t even tell us the mundane things in his life anymore so clearly we have no place in his personal issues so I have to weigh my opinions based on dan in 2020 and from what I’ve seen he’s just not that into us.

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:44 pm**

Amiaw wrote: Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:30 pm Breaking my own rule for a minute to discuss why dan’s mental health is always brought up as a reason for his current relationship with us.
It’s funny because I saw a tumblr post recently about Phil and someone said they were worried about how he was handling this lockdown and the reply was that Phil shouldn’t be infantilized and he had the support system to make sure he was okay and I agree with that. I saw people on this forum reblog that post too but that sentiment only applies to Phil? Phil’s also experienced several serious things that we know about and he has admitted he has anxiety but it’s not something that anyone brings up to excuse him or explain away behavior so why do we continue to woobify Daniel? Is it because he made a few videos about it? Does it make it our concern because he talked about it a few years ago? That dan has been gone for awhile. We don’t even know him anymore since he said himself he’s always changing.
The Dan we have now doesn’t even tell us the mundane things in his life anymore so clearly we have no place in his personal issues so I have to weigh my opinions based on dan in 2020.

I do see people equally concerned about both of them re: mental health. To me, there's a difference in acknowledging the context of someone's life and factors that influence the decisions they make and in infantalizing them. Saying that Phil shouldn't be making videos and needs to rest more is infantalizing, imo; talking about how Phil's likely handling or stressed out by the pandemic considering his parents age and health is doing the latter. The same with Phil and Vidcon - I saw lots of people talk about him and his anxiety afterwards, and Phil even acknowledged it.

The only real difference I see is that Phil's mental health issues aren't as deeply tied to making videos and having an audience, and Dan's are. That's a difference in them as people.

I'm also confused at the approach of ignoring all of what we know about Dan as a person. Dan is a huge advocate for mental health. He's outspoken about depression and how it's tied into his sexuality and personal growth. I don't think it's woobifying to have conversations about how his mental health impacts his desire or ability to produce content, and it's definitely not like those issues have stopped existing. I don't want to separate out people from their mental health. That feels dehumanizing to me. Also, I just think you can't with Dan. All of this - his depression, his sexuality, the trauma he suffered, having an audience through a very formative 18-22 year age gap when most people get to develop themselves, being closeted on camera, being closeted to his family while his audience knowing his sexuality, Phil and their relationship, going on tours, growing as a person, deciding on the kind of content he wanted to make, learning distance - all of it is one big tangled ball of yarn. I don't think you can take out just one piece and go "this is the line about Dan making youtube videos" and not yank everything else into the conversation with it.

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:54 pm**

I think that a large part of it has to do with how Dan has been explicit about the way that being a content creator interacts with and often intensifies his anxiety/depression (again I'm just going to reference the muckbang video, but I'm sure he's addressed it elsewhere as well). If Phil suddenly took a step back from making content, I would probably assume that something had come up in his life or he was working on another project. With Dan, I would assume that either one of those things had happened or that something with his mental health was making it hard for him to make videos. This isn't because I think Phil doesn't or isn't allowed to have issues with his mental health, but rather because Dan has stated that making content is - or at least can be - a stressful experience for him.

I think that it's possible for us to infantilize them, and I'm sure that many people do, but anxiety and depression are parts of life for people of all ages and abilities, and I think there's a huge difference between being concerned for someone's well being during a difficult time and infantilizing them. I'm not part of the Phandom community on tumblr, and I have no idea whether people's concern there has been something I would consider infantilizing (though I'm sure at least some of it is), but I think that it's okay to be concerned for someone's well being while also realizing that they likely have personal support and coping mechanisms in place.

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 6:59 pm**

I think a lot of the discussion here earlier just boils down to different expectations. I might be kicking down open doors here, but it's pretty clear that different people will have different ideas of what Dan and/or Phil should do in certain situations. Some people will expect different things from one or the other, or the same behavior from both. And it can be difficult to discuss opinions on a situation when you just have very different views on what we want from them.

Some people want a checkup on what they're up too every now and then, to feel like they still care. Some people would prefer they keep quiet until they have something substantial to announce, because vagueness makes them anxious. Neither is right or wrong, and I just think that difference is worth to acknowledge.

Posted: **Mon Apr 13, 2020 7:14 pm**

May I just add too, dizzy I love your timestamps. I know I'm not always super active on here, but that's mostly bc I read on mobile and have trouble connecting with my account that way.

Also, Phil just like, A+ for me lately. I literally almost fell off my sofa during his livestream I laughed so much. As someone who is new to phandom, getting to do these little Phil games, especially the drawing game, felt so special to me! I really, really loved that. I have a lot of soft.

His video also! I liked the AC videos but mostly just bc I love him. I don't play AC and probably never will so the basic content wasn't aimed at me as a consumer. I just love Phil. But I am so here for his delightful chaos. I laugh so much with these videos. I feel like there's so much more shining through in his videos these last few months! There was a little lull for me for a little while (the haunted hotel one, the green screen) after the glasses and norman videos (of the 666k views on the norman video I am reasonably sure 1k are me alone, that video kills me. If I'm having a bad day, I'm watching that one). I am so here for Phil chaos and laughter and just...as a person who is ultimate chaos disaster in many ways, I appreciate that he can laugh about it, make it silly and okay. A lot of people see my chaos and sigh and I get a lot of "oh that's just Jude being Jude" and it's a lot easier to find the humor in my kind of fail when I see other chaotic and awesome people out there.

Ok. Sorry for the ramble and probable typos. I am dashing this one off as my kids call for me.

IDB

Dan & Phil Part 94: Year of the Rats

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