IDB

This works particularly well next to Ataraxia’s avatar with that adorable big, kinda cheeky, smile. Terrifying, though.

rizzo wrote: Tue Sep 17, 2019 4:04 pm

rizzo wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2019 8:17 pm

rizzo wrote: Thu Sep 12, 2019 2:46 pm

rizzo wrote: Mon Sep 02, 2019 7:39 pm i honestly hate him

This day has been so strange.

The notif popped up and I looked at it for several moments like WHOMST is this; then I got jumpscared by the userpic. Well done Dan, 3spooky5me

I went to shower and return to heterosexual Dan. What the hell.

The conversation (thankfully?) has already kinda moved on from Dan's merch drop, and there have been some really great posts from people much more eloquent than me talking about why others may be not upset by it while a lot of you guys are, but I'm just so fascinated by this aspect of fandom culture, which of course isn't unique to the phandom, and the demand for communication! I mean, and I can't stress this enough, Dan doesn't actually owe us anything. When they were doing their two stage shows, he, as well as Phil, owed a performance to the audience that had bought tickets. When someone buys merch from him, Dan owe them the item that this person paid for. And that's it. Everything beside that is optional, and what seems like crystal clear and enough communication for one person, as very well shown by this discussion we're having, is a super confusing mess for another person.

Dan says he doesn't know what he's doing - well, then I assume that hasn't changed unless he says something. And so I had been assuming right until this tumblr post where he talked about this new project that hasn't worked out yet. Ok, cool, I'm waiting whenever he's ready. Or, maybe, he will never be, there's a sad thought, but that happens, that's how life is, especially with creative stuff. (I should maybe also mention that personally, I don't give a damn about merch as I never buy it, this is not a form of content for me, nor am I interested in Dan's bare legs or any other part of his body). Then, there's this argument about relationship and phantom breakup, but if you actually want to treat this as a relationship, it goes both ways, and for breakups, too. If and when something stops working out for you, you step away from it, you don't try to force a person to change when they don't want to change. To be clear, I don't want to invalidate anyone's feelings or police the discourse, this is a fandom space, everyone's allowed to have and express an opinion, if it makes people feel better to talk about their anger and how they feel they are being manipulated, they are very welcome, I just don't really understand where all these expectations come from, I guess

Because he used to talk to us and then stopped. In the last joint liveshow they told us of a gaming channel hiatus, then came unexpected silence from Dan until June and still we’ve waited all year to hear if he’s coming back to youtube, going to engage on twitter or ig frequently again, join Phil in any videos or if he’s working on anything we’ll ever see. Now he’s said he has been working on something, seems that was another lie that he didn’t know back at Vidcon. I’ve reached my peak of understanding, I didn’t mind for months, but 11... for now I’m just hella sad and hoping I might feel different in the morning.

I don't expect anything from Dan. I don't know him personally and he owes me nothing. But am I going to eyeroll a bit when lately it seems like he only comes around with his hand out in the form of merch drops? Yeah, probably.

I also don't expect anyone to agree with me. Everyone is entitled to their feelings and how they choose to express them. But It sure gets tiring to see any bit of criticism met with subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) shaming or downright hostility.

coffeepenguin wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 12:35 am The conversation (thankfully?) has already kinda moved on from Dan's merch drop, and there have been some really great posts from people much more eloquent than me talking about why others may be not upset by it while a lot of you guys are, but I'm just so fascinated by this aspect of fandom culture, which of course isn't unique to the phandom, and the demand for communication! I mean, and I can't stress this enough, Dan doesn't actually owe us anything. When they were doing their two stage shows, he, as well as Phil, owed a performance to the audience that had bought tickets. When someone buys merch from him, Dan owe them the item that this person paid for. And that's it. Everything beside that is optional, and what seems like crystal clear and enough communication for one person, as very well shown by this discussion we're having, is a super confusing mess for another person.

Dan says he doesn't know what he's doing - well, then I assume that hasn't changed unless he says something. And so I had been assuming right until this tumblr post where he talked about this new project that hasn't worked out yet. Ok, cool, I'm waiting whenever he's ready. Or, maybe, he will never be, there's a sad thought, but that happens, that's how life is, especially with creative stuff. (I should maybe also mention that personally, I don't give a damn about merch as I never buy it, this is not a form of content for me, nor am I interested in Dan's bare legs or any other part of his body). Then, there's this argument about relationship and phantom breakup, but if you actually want to treat this as a relationship, it goes both ways, and for breakups, too. If and when something stops working out for you, you step away from it, you don't try to force a person to change when they don't want to change. To be clear, I don't want to invalidate anyone's feelings or police the discourse, this is a fandom space, everyone's allowed to have and express an opinion, if it makes people feel better to talk about their anger and how they feel they are being manipulated, they are very welcome, I just don't really understand where all these expectations come from, I guess

For me, it isn't really about expectations, it's much more about the consequences of one's actions. Dan could completely disappear from the public eye, never tweet anything again, never post another video and I would accept that. Would that hurt? Yeah, but I wouldn't be angry at him because that's his life and his decisions and I don't have a say in that. But releasing merch for example is some kind of interaction, because there's him releasing the merch and then there's his audience on the other end, considering buing things. It's not just a Dan decision that exists only in the context of his private life, merch release is something that's specifically targeted at us, so no wonder that people have opinions about it.

When something stops working in my personal relationships, first I try to talk it through, usually, granted that I actually care and want to maintain this relationship. And I care about Dan, otherwise I would not be on this forum and in the phandom, and I assume that many people are not upset enough to just leave. I think most of us want improvement. So I see people talking about their feelings about the whole thing as an attempt to improve the relationship between Dan and his audience or just as a way to let their feelings out. Obviously, you will never please everyone but if enough people voice their concern about a specific thing, then Dan might want to consider changing something about the way he deals with this specific thing. He doesn't have to, obviously. If I ever get so upset with Dan that I can't stand him anymore, I swear I will unsubscribe/unfollow and stop talking about him and engaging with his content but right now I still like him and I still want to believe that he has good intentions.

It's not that I 100% hate him and believe he's manipulating us, it's just that we've had so little information from him lately that this sudden comeback to the social media just to drop the merch kinda looks manipulative, and most importantly it feels manipulative. And I believe that it could have been prevented if Dan talked to us more, and that's why you have people wanting more communication.

Ataraxia25 wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 6:11 pm

Luu wrote: Thu Oct 31, 2019 5:56 pm HAS HE NOT LEARNED ANYTHING ABOUT SURPRISES??? TATINOF HELLO??? istg this guy is going to give me an aneurysm. He could have prevented all of this with communicating and interacting with us on a regular basis, not just ghosting us until he has something to sell us.


(sorry for screaming and my bad english but I have shit to say and I'm still annoyed)

The thing is, dropping project as a surprise works better for him! Because this fandom puts expectations on him and i'm not sure he can deal with it. So that's how he does thing, people should get used to it.
Also the fandom is insufferable when waiting on a project, we know that. I understand Dan for not wanting that and for wanting time away to work on his project alone. He's not going anywhere.

And you say "has he not learned nothing about surprises" but this goes both ways. The fandom should learn about all these expectations put on Dan. He should take a good look at himself and his ways of doing things but WE SHOULD TOO.

Also, people should stop being outright mean to him, the guy has feelings too and can see everything.

Ofc I'd love than to communicate with us the way PhilosophyTube does when he's making a video, by tweeting parts of the process and keeping the audience updated if there's a delay but I know this is totally unrealistic for Dan and this fandom. Other people have said it before and much eloquently so I'm just going to quote part of what hello9217 said bc it is exactly how I feel:

All I was upset about was that he didn’t communicate in any way, shape, or form until he was about to drop merch. He could have kept the project secret and be done with it as long as he took 10 minutes out of his day to just tweet and reply to other people or just post an insta story of what he’s listening to or just something! Like I truly don’t care if he’s working on a project as long as he still manages to acknowledge his audience. Also just going to put it out there that phil has said three times now that he is working on a project that he doesn’t know if it will go anywhere and no one hounds him for updates on it.

Ik the conversation has moved on but I just wanted to reply bc I don't think I made myself very clear with my post! That's all from me about the Dan and merch and communication situation.


Ps: Phil too soon

I mean, I think most people want to be treated well and see others being treated well, which isn't something you buy or sell.


You know what's making me sad? Ever since Dan mentioned the project that didn't end up working on his timeline, the Dan and Phil Travel Series that never got made keeps popping into my head. It could have been so goddamn good. I'm mourning the times when Dan and Phil created stuff together all over again. Whyy?

CapriciousCrab wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:03 am I also don't expect anyone to agree with me. Everyone is entitled to their feelings and how they choose to express them. But It sure gets tiring to see any bit of criticism met with subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) shaming or downright hostility.

this was interesting to read. absolutely no shade, truly, hand to God, honest question: how does someone express disagreement with the majority opinion without being misread as subtlety shaming the opinion nearly everyone on the forum seems to be passionately expressing?

(truly not trying to be a shit stirrer, i am just interested in learning how to better communicate my feelings especially when they aren’t the popular opinion? also i don’t want to belabor the point *has violent flashbacks to the argue-y idb dude who just would not leave* //shudders)

Daniel Howell has made me feel every possible human emotion in the last 12 hours, congrats old man

stufflizloves wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:38 am

CapriciousCrab wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:03 am I also don't expect anyone to agree with me. Everyone is entitled to their feelings and how they choose to express them. But It sure gets tiring to see any bit of criticism met with subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) shaming or downright hostility.

this was interesting to read. absolutely no shade, truly, hand to God, honest question: how does someone express disagreement with the majority opinion without being misread as subtlety shaming the opinion nearly everyone on the forum seems to be passionately expressing?

(truly not trying to be a shit stirrer, i am just interested in learning how to better communicate my feelings especially when they aren’t the popular opinion? also i don’t want to belabor the point *has violent flashbacks to the argue-y idb dude who just would not leave* //shudders)

I take this as an opportunity to say that my disagreeing with the majority of people on here are not meant to be shaming in any way.
I usually don't like "defending" dnp, i don't know them, they're adults, I'm not their parent. This particular topic tho seems like something I care about enough to defend them/Dan.

I stand by what I said but I don't want anyone to feel bad or shamed. My criticism about the phandom is really about the whole groups and not individuals.
So yeah, i don't want anyone to feel bad and i should have said that of course, everyone's feeling is valid.

I guess I'm still wondering why the merch was released now, instead of whenever this project is allowed to come to fruition. We didn't know he was working on anything specific, so it's not like we were expecting something to drop? Like, does that mean he's releasing his final round of merch when the project comes out? Why release it at all if it was meant to be in tandem with other content? Curious about his planning. I hope he saw/sees how happy people were with just a single IG post (before the merch heh) and does more of those posts in the interim of his next content drop

See, the problem is that Dan’s big project clearly is an OnlyFans account, but it’s taking him forever to talk Jack and Finn into filming something that Dan can sell for $100 a month.

Patience, everyone.

I just wish people would understand that it’s not easy to stop caring about something even when it doesn’t make you feel good. I am not having a good time in the phandom lately because I miss joint content and I am not sure how I feel about Dan, but y’all... there’s a thing called emotional investment that makes it hard to just say “screw them”. So yeah, i don’t know if things will change for me or not, but for the moment all I can do is appreciate things when are good, complain when I feel like it and wish things were better because I am upset but at the same time I still care too much. Not as much I cared ‘till a few months ago, that’s for sure, but I still care. And it takes time to let things go, especially when they’ve been part of your life for years.

CapriciousCrab wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:03 am I don't expect anything from Dan. I don't know him personally and he owes me nothing. But am I going to eyeroll a bit when lately it seems like he only comes around with his hand out in the form of merch drops? Yeah, probably.

I also don't expect anyone to agree with me. Everyone is entitled to their feelings and how they choose to express them. But It sure gets tiring to see any bit of criticism met with subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) shaming or downright hostility.

I just want to reiterate that I wasn't trying to criticise or, especially, shame anybody, and I'm very sorry if what I wrote came out that way, that wasn't my intention! I am genuinely surprised every time these kinds of discussions pop out, and I've read all the arguments, I was just trying to see more into them while offering my own opposite perspective. Hope I didn't offend or upset anybody. (That's why I usually stay out of the discussion)

stufflizloves wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 2:38 am

CapriciousCrab wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:03 am I also don't expect anyone to agree with me. Everyone is entitled to their feelings and how they choose to express them. But It sure gets tiring to see any bit of criticism met with subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) shaming or downright hostility.

this was interesting to read. absolutely no shade, truly, hand to God, honest question: how does someone express disagreement with the majority opinion without being misread as subtlety shaming the opinion nearly everyone on the forum seems to be passionately expressing?

Oops, I should have clarified that I meant in spaces outside of IDB. Everyone here is pretty good about expressing themselves in respectful ways, even if we disagree. But other platforms can get pretty nasty.

coffeepenguin wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:53 am

CapriciousCrab wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 1:03 am I don't expect anything from Dan. I don't know him personally and he owes me nothing. But am I going to eyeroll a bit when lately it seems like he only comes around with his hand out in the form of merch drops? Yeah, probably.

I also don't expect anyone to agree with me. Everyone is entitled to their feelings and how they choose to express them. But It sure gets tiring to see any bit of criticism met with subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) shaming or downright hostility.

I just want to reiterate that I wasn't trying to criticise or, especially, shame anybody, and I'm very sorry if what I wrote came out that way, that wasn't my intention! I am genuinely surprised every time these kinds of discussions pop out, and I've read all the arguments, I was just trying to see more into them while offering my own opposite perspective. Hope I didn't offend or upset anybody. (That's why I usually stay out of the discussion)

No no, you're fine! Please keep sharing your opinions and thoughts- that's what makes this forum so great

A big part of my problem with this whole situation is I don't think Dan wants to share his life with the phandom anymore, which while understandable is hard to adjust to after years of him regularly sharing snippets of his life and interacting with us. I can take the silence if that's what he wants I can't take him interacting with us in such a cynical way I was genuinely happy when he posted the selfie and I wasn't expecting him to do more, I just thought he's living his life and decided to share a little bit of it with us and I was grateful, the merch drop completely caught me off guard and it tainted it, now it feels like he did it begrudgingly which I hate, I don't want forced interactions just because he has something to sell.

There's no reason other than money to do the merch drop now instead of waiting for his project to come to fruition, to do it on Halloween when a lot of us are missing spooky week and a baking video felt like he has no idea how we feel, his response on Tumblr was better than nothing but it also felt like damage control rather than something he intended to post anyway, the bit about it being his penultimate drop for a while just felt like a way to justify his next drop with no content inbetween without getting a backlash and sending the message to people that if you want something from Dan best get it now because who knows if and when he'll be back.

The photo of him in the hoodie with his legs out and painted nails felt like the worst kind of giving people what they want to me.

I'm actually so tired of "He doesn't owe us anything" even though I agree and have said it myself. I'm pretty sure everyone here knows that but that doesn't mean we can't be upset when his business decisions seem a little unethical, especially when you consider his target audience with the merch isn't necessarily us but rather teens. Creators don't owe us anything but we don't owe them our unlimited support either.

I've supported Dan and Phil for a crazy long time now (seven years?) but I'm not the type that can stay emotionally invested in creators as fickle as Dan. And of course that's on me and you don't have to agree with me or feel the same way, it's all good. And if I was actually done with Dan I wouldn't be here anymore, I would have probably just unfollowed him and be done for good. But I do like him and just because I think some of the stuff he did lately is questionable doesn't mean I hate him now, I really don't. He stands for so many good things too and that's why I'm still here.

scientia wrote:I guess I'm still wondering why the merch was released now, instead of whenever this project is allowed to come to fruition. We didn't know he was working on anything specific, so it's not like we were expecting something to drop? Like, does that mean he's releasing his final round of merch when the project comes out? Why release it at all if it was meant to be in tandem with other content?

My guess is it had to come out because it's not only Dan involved in that. He has so many people working on his merch in the background that all depend on him keeping to the agreed schedule. I think Dan's secret project is probably a video so he is the only person affected by the delay. But if he had delayed the merch release, it would have affected a lot of different people so I understand why the merch had to come out now and not when the project is ready. I'm actually okay with that, that's business and it happens even when you plan carefully.

And just to make it very clear: I don't want a video from him, if he's not ready or doesn't want to make one or anything. And if he had been active on social media over the past few weeks, if it had felt like he's actually present as an influencer, I wouldn't mind the merch at all. My number one quibble is that he was basically invisible for so long and then expects his fans to buy the new stuff. And yes, it makes more sense now that we know there was supposed to be content to go along with it. But there isn't and that's what makes it so obvious how absent he was lately.

coffeepenguin wrote:I just want to reiterate that I wasn't trying to criticise or, especially, shame anybody, and I'm very sorry if what I wrote came out that way, that wasn't my intention!

Just wanted to make clear my post isn't directed at you or anyone else personally, I'm just generally annoyed with the whole situation but of course it's fine if other people aren't. You didn't shame anyone, you just said your opinion which I found interesting to read, even though I don't agree with all of it.

Phanshy wrote:There's no reason other than money to do the merch drop now instead of waiting for his project to come to fruition,

I agree with your post but I've been thinking about this part a bit and I was wondering how him having to pay his whole team plays into these things. I know he's rich but he probably won't stay rich if he doesn't make more money and still has to pay management and stuff. I literally know nothing about business stuff like this so I'm probably way off. I just don't want to think Dan's greedy and that there's another reason for this but who knows?

(This post is too long, I'm sorry.)

Katka wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:37 am
My guess is it had to come out because it's not only Dan involved in that. He has so many people working on his merch in the background that all depend on him keeping to the agreed schedule. I think Dan's secret project is probably a video so he is the only person affected by the delay. But if he had delayed the merch release, it would have affected a lot of different people so I understand why the merch had to come out now and not when the project is ready. I'm actually okay with that, that's business and it happens even when you plan carefully.

Speaking of this, I was wondering what people think about that project, and what it is. I didn't think much about it last night, and i guess i'll be happy with anything but... if it was a book, I'd be really really really happy. But that's just the bookworm in me talking.

Ataraxia25 wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 11:04 am

Katka wrote: Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:37 am
My guess is it had to come out because it's not only Dan involved in that. He has so many people working on his merch in the background that all depend on him keeping to the agreed schedule. I think Dan's secret project is probably a video so he is the only person affected by the delay. But if he had delayed the merch release, it would have affected a lot of different people so I understand why the merch had to come out now and not when the project is ready. I'm actually okay with that, that's business and it happens even when you plan carefully.

Speaking of this, I was wondering what people think about that project, and what it is. I didn't think much about it last night, and i guess i'll be happy with anything but... if it was a book, I'd be really really really happy. But that's just the bookworm in me talking.

Ooh now that's a good point (and I guess something positive for us to shift our attention to), what could it be, that it has ended up delayed? And does it mean he's going to do something else before that project now? Very confused, and I think he's being vague about timelines/planning/why delayed on purpose (I mean, duh).


Speaking of, I'm going to share the tumblr post as don't think it's been shared yet (for some reason it won't display nicely... )
So specific quotes from twitter/tumblr:

'-as someone who is known principally for their comedy content I personally feel like my merch should more often be in support of the other things I make... There was an exciting project I’ve long been working on, originally planned to release this October, but sometimes things don’t go as ideally planned (c'est la vie)'

'I hope to share more of myself and good news with you all soon'

'yes a shame it isn’t here when i wanted but i will reveal more when it is real!'

'it is something new but extremely dan'

'yes sorry the plan was to just drop it as a surprise but now there’s some reshuffling i’ll let you guys know what i’m up to next soon ty'

He specifically mentioned that he was known for comedy content, so something along those lines for sure. Podcast? Stand-up show? Some kind of mini-series? An external sponsor/collaborator must be involved I think, rather than a regular self-produced video, for there to be a delay he says was a shame happened/c'est la vie.

Spreading positivity in these dark times

I actually think this is the first mech that I genuinely like from him. Not the circumstances, but the merch itself ^^