Becky.rigby wrote: Sat Dec 19, 2020 11:26 pm
Ahh it’s time for the cancel Dan and Phil on Twitter again (face palms). I think this is quite an interesting topic for us to discuss on here actually. Incase you are not on Twitter, people are bringing up old tweets/videos from like 2010/2013 if incidents where Dan and Phil has said something racist or using the r***** word etc. And people on Twitter are asking for an apology.
I have conflicted opinions, because these incidents are from 8-10 years ago, meaning people are actually trying to seek out the content to try and cancel them, which isn’t cool. Also their fans haven’t exactly been incident, trying to sexualise them and their relationship and trying to out them before they were ready. However I agree some of the stuff they said was a big yikes, but that was what YouTube was like back then, they didn’t know better.
What are your opinions on cancel culture? I think if the person/people have shown they have changed and the stuff in question is from a longggg time ago, I personally think cancel culture can be toxic.
I'm sure this has been discussed on here before, probably multiple times, and I expect that most people on here have fairly similar viewpoints on it to me, but I figured I'd throw in my two cents (or ten, this will probs be long lol) feel free to skip, I don't think I'm saying anything groundbreaking, just putting my thoughts out there, maybe articulating something in a way that can help someone else.
In short, my personal feelings and thoughts of the situation (in general, I'm not on twitter, idk what exact things people might be bringing up) is that yes, dnp both have said yikey things, especially in the early days of yt. and they have both grown a massive amount and don't say those things anymore. Their behaviour has clearly changed over the years with education and I don't really see the point in digging up old shit and making a big fuss about it.
When it comes to discussing problematic or harmful behaviour there's a few common themes and points that I think are often discussed or mentioned (these are like things people say and think about, I include my own opinions as an aside, but am also attempting to just layout a bit of a dissection of different things to think about regarding this stuff):
1. Intent and impact.
This is a really important dichotomy to separate and understand the importance of. In the case of many people, I think dnp included, it is rare that the behaviour in question is done with malicious intent, done consciously with the purpose to hurt someone. This of course does not mean that the action is not harmful, these two things exist together. Looking at intent is something to consider when assigning blame and what kind of responses would be appropriate. In many cases, this common occurrence of someone saying or doing something harmful without intending to is because they are unaware of how it is harmful, also very likely to be the case with things dnp have done in the past, when people are unaware and don't intend harm it is my personal rationale to not blame or be harsh to them, but to attempt to educate them and help them see the harmful impact of their actions with the hope that they learn and don't do it again. (Of course there are some situations where while someone might not've been explicitly aware of something being harmful, it could be a conclusion easily arrived to if they though about it much, which may change how someone places blame/feels about the situation) In the case of dnp's early behaviour, I think this is really applicable because I don't get the feeling that they did things with malintent, and they have also clearly learned and been educated/educated themselves on things and stopped doing/saying harmful things they have done in the past over time.
2. Times change/evolution of what is acceptable
This is a tricky one, and like intent and impact, not a clear cut, and often something that contains contradictions. This is also something that I think is brought up often as an excuse but not thoroughly explored/discussed enough. In dnp's case, it is also very applicable as their past behaviours (I think specifically of using the slur r****** and referencing/inaccurately using r*pe) these were extremely common and run of the mill on the internet (and irl) at the time. They were not wildly out of line or shocking in comparison to others with these behaviours, which contributes to the idea of intention, and when things are done because they're what's normal, without understanding of their harm. To some degree, I find this an acceptable excuse, and it is one of the reasons I personally don't strongly blame or have a huge problem with dnp's usage of them in the past (again, because they have learned and stopped doing those things, if they still did them my feelings would be very different). However, it is also VERY important to understand that this excuse does not mean that they were not harmful/didn't cause harm/don't continue to cause harm.
They did and they do, just because it was normalized, doesn't mean it was right, but rather explains why someone may have done it ~~context~~.
3. What is the appropriate response (of the one who did harm)?
Looking at response, you can look at/ask for types of apology, types of change in behaviour and potential healing/mitigation of harm caused. This is definitely a place where people differ, but to me when it comes to cases like dnp, the change in action is really what speaks the most for me. I feel like especially online, lengthy apologies tend to be/feel quite performative. A short apology is nice and serves as a public acknowledgement that one has caused harm. From then on, I am of the mindset that changing future behaviour to not repeat the harm once someone is aware of it, is what matters and determines whether I stick with someone or remove/distance them in my life (be that a personal relationship or considering someone I used to follow online 'cancelled') I see dnp's changes in behaviour as a lot more meaningful that other youtubers who have done things, been called out/made aware of their impact, make a big lengthy apology and then done very little.
Apologies and change of future behaviour both focus on the now and what can be done moving forward. In the case of dnp it is also important to look at what options they have in terms of reducing harm, as their content is not a passing conversation, but something that stays up in video/post form. There are different schools of thought around this, and I think opinions on what the right or best thing to do is vary a lot. While nothing completely disappears from the internet forever (something dnp are deeply aware of, bless their young closeted gay souls) there is absolutely something to be said for taking down content that contains harmful behaviour, things that someone no longer feels reflects themselves as they have learned. People tend to be of two minds on this; on one hand, taking down old harmful content (from official channels/pages) is good, it means that people won't stumble upon it and be surprised and hurt. For dnp, there can absolutely be cases where either it would effect them professionally if someone looking to work with them went back through older videos on their channel or a new viewer who knows their more current content and selves, goes back to watch older videos and is shocked and hurt by things that were done, never expecting them from the dnp they know today. These situations have the potential to hurt both viewers and dnp themselves. On the other hand, leaving up old content with some harmful behaviours with how dnp have such a catalogue of videos of themselves over time, shows the whole journey and change that they have gone through, shows who they were then and who they are now and many of the steps in between. In some ways, it is a example and evidence of how people can and do change as they learn, and an example of how many of us make mistakes and do harmful things without realizing and learn and change away from those things. imo, there's really no perfect right way, for things that are very harmful, likely to be extremely triggering to people, potentially more damaging to dnp's careers, taking them down is for the best. But also, for things that are still harmful but somewhat less strongly for most people, leaving them up doesn't bother me, as it feel like an honest acknowledgment of things past and how they have changed. In terms of what dnp have done, they have taken down some videos from their channels, but still left others up, and we'll never really know exactly what goes through their heads on making those decisions on a video-by-video basis. (Dan does talk in a 2017(?) liveshow on dansinotinteresting about taking down some of his old vids, but I don't remember exactly what he said, you can go find it if you want)
4. What is the appropriate response (of viewers/content consumers)?
The internet loves and thrives on short-term drama. In terms of actually resolving issues at a deep level, short term flare ups of issues don't tend to directly accomplish much lasting impact on their own. I tend to stray away from terms like 'cancel culture' or 'calling out' because I think they bring up immediate intense emotions and judgements from people (including myself) which makes more in depth (ayyyy) discussion and actual conflict resolution more difficult. Making people aware of their harmful behaviours and effectively getting them to change is very difficult. We don't like to feel criticized and threatened. Generally, I think public call outs are a method that should be used only after discussion has been prompted and denied on a more direct/personal level. Being called out in a public space is extremely scary, and I think a lot less likely to yield good results, as people will be so focused on trying to protect from the threat they feel that they won't be able to calm down and actually listen and learn. In the specific case of people on twitter currently trying to bring up stuff from 7+ years ago, I feel like it's very likely that their intentions are mainly to get attention (drama) (like BrothAndBrine said, people are bored). Most of these things have been brought up in the fandom, across all social medias, thoroughly. It is not big new news and I think it's quite clear that dnp don't do those things anymore and would denounce/disagree with their past behaviours. At this point, a direct apology or acknowledgement from them would seem pretty out of place imo, like we've been over this, they've been over this, changes have been made.
For me, I would much rather people spend their energy (not that I expect this, as I don't think their intentions strongly lie with trying to actually reduce future harm/get people to change) working on current issues that need dealing with, there are plenty of people out there doing worse shit than dnp have ever done right now. Or, focus on things dnp are doing right now that are harmful, things that they might not be super aware of, could learn about and change.
'Cause, yeah, while I love them to bits (why tf else would I be here) there are things that dnp do and say currently that I don't like, think are harmful, that I would love them to change, etc. (maybe some day I will rant on here about how Dan's use of AAVE, particularly for comedic effect really grinds my gears) And yes, I still continue to watch them, honestly if I tried to not consume content from anyone who was never problematic ever I wouldn't have anything to consume. I couldn't even read my own stuff. They have done harmful things, they continue to do harmful things, as we all do. I personally have sized it up, seen them over time, understand how while there are things they do now that I don't like or find problematic, they are very common, and more of a societal issue than specific to them, so I continue to watch and follow them. But that is an individual and conscious choice. Other people may feel differently and that's fine.
Ok thank you for reading my long ramble don't forget to try and be as compassionate as possible to yourself and others
Let old drama fizzle past you. (idk, maybe this is just a message for me, maybe you need to hear it too)
Edit: PS, just because I'm curious since I wasn't around then, I've been watching the undertale series back and in the 2nd episode there's the snowpoffs and Dan makes a joke like 'that's offensive you can't say that anymore', did it ever cause drama/discourse in the fandom?? I personally find it a funny pun, and Dan being queer and someone who definitely had 'poof' used against him (I think it's actually one of the examples he uses in BIG) a fine joke for him to make, but him not being out at the time I wonder if people had a go at him for it??
